一地鹰毛——1977年F-14与F-15的较量

F风

Quote from: JTCholis on January 11, 2011, 08:59:43 PMSkogs really good with managing those TF-30's & they could be pesky. Many had issues with them.



JT,

It's worth remembering that I'm the Rookie in this bunch, and only have a fraction of the F-14 time of others here.  As a result, my mileage may not be typical.

My only TF-30 compressor stall was briefly discussed in another thread, and was the result of a mach lever failure on a Profile A PMCF.  I was at 40K feet, about 1.5-1.6M, higher than usual speed for the mach lever test.  The test profile was to retard the throttle, but not to let the RPM decay below a certain percentage (75% maybe?).  As the RPM dropped below about 95%, the engine stalled, and it was like riding a bucking bronco.  My helmet banged off the top of the canopy multiple times, and my RO, Huggy Whitehead told me later he was about to reach for the ejection handle.  I managed to get it cleared, and the rest of the flight was uneventful.  Back on the flight line, we saw a chunk of one rudder missing from when the yaw damper kicked the rudders into the relative wind during the stall.  Maintenance told me that had been a patched spot on that rudder.

One other time, flying out of Yuma, I had a jet that overtemped every time I selected afterburner, but ran fine at military power.  I ended up having to fight an F-5 with one in Zone 5 and the other in mil power, but had a good time nonetheless.  I was told afterward that the engine was slightly mis-trimmed, and they fixed it for the next flight.

That engine "whiz wheel" sure doesn't look very user friendly, and I'm glad we didn't have to deal with it.   

VR Skogs

F风

Back in the TF-30 Pratt & Whitney days, a compressor stall on one motor during a gutz balls dog fight, high yaw rate, AOA bout 28 units, was merely a temporary distraction..... Unload ..."slightly", ease up on the yaw, to get good air thru the motor.... Shut it down prior to 1100 degrees TIT....relight when temp gets below 450 and keep your lead turn in on the Gomer.....  Gun his arse!!,,    Write it up when you get back, if, you remember.     Compressor stalls were a common occurrance and losing a fight cause of one was B.S!!!   Thank you Mr. Secretary for the GE 110 motors.   Vr hoser       ( If the engines are Pratt & Whitney, the seats best be Martin Baker)       HaaaarrR!

F风

I don't know if I'd use the word "vastly" here, but there definitely were a couple of differences.  First of all, at the boat the break is done at 800', with a subsequent descent to the pattern altitude of 600'.  At the field, break and pattern altitude were usually at 1500' AGL.  At the boat, everything matters.  Coming in at the speed of heat and looking good does you little good if you mess up the interval of landing airplanes.  By that I mean if you wind up too close to the aircraft ahead and have to go around...bad news.  If you have too long an interval (over 50 seconds) on the aircraft ahead, you'll get a dressing down.  If you extend your downwind because you need to slow down more, they'll send you around so you don't mess up the guy behind you.  At an airfield, things are much more loose, and you can salvage just about anything.

As for speed in the break, a Naval Air Station has an airport traffic area just like another field, but the rules are not all that strictly enforced.  Coming in below 300-350 would be unheard of in the fighter community.  400-450 was more common, and never a problem as far as I saw.  For one thing, the F-14 is such a big airplane that it rarely looks like it's going all that fast.  An A-4 at 350 looked faster than a turkey at 500.  Once you got above 450 or so, I guess there's always a chance someone will see you and start asking questions, but I didn't see it.  Obviously, if you bust the number, you're gonna make the news, and that's never a good thing.  Since that runs about 660 at sea level, I never felt like I should go above about 630 in the break.

I know there was a push at Miramar at one time to get pilots to slow down in the break, to the point of clocking speeds coming in.  Bug Roach told me he considered it a badge of honor to personally have as many slots as possible on the top 10 list.  He also told a great story about coming into the break supersonic at San Clemente Island.  What a character he was!

Hope that helps!

VR Skogs

F风

Well, yes... it varied, and see my update to Hoser's story early in this thread about "got a note from Mom!"  (I was on Hoser's wing for that one).  I would say, generally, Navy bases didn't care once you were in tower's airspace (wrt  the FAA 250kias max below 10k).  We generally flew 300-350kias or so below 10k while still up departure or approach control at a Navy base like Oceana/Mirimar, and they never cared (but blatant excessive speed could generate that query that we got on that earlier story here).

It mattered not, though, because once inside tower airspace (4-5 miles from the field) and switched from approach control to tower, it was very easy to accelerate in time to be 450-500kias common/normal at the numbers for the JWB (John Wayne Break).  Navy towers could care less.  Civilian towers, on cross-country usually didn't care 'cuz they loved the rare airshow.  Air Force towers... had to be careful depending on who's in charge to stand by for a phone call from some heavy as to "why were you doing 450kias in the break?!!"  (Correct answer, always... "Cuz, I couldn't quite get 500!" (famous Zoom Gill answer).

During most of my times in Key West there were hardly any rules.  This was before Bump/Schneider Devane and Elmer Harvey did the "hot pad departure" and added dropping live flares to the normal "standard" burn off the roof of the hot pad "shack" (briefing building) with afterburner -- max pitch rate up to vertical climb at just over flight line jets' tails and just before running into the hot pad's picture window!  It was a trooper moral booster, and almost all did it (tower would even ask you if you wanted the "hot pad departure" and if so, to taxi to, I think, RWY 25).  Same with entering the break... 50-100 ft, 500kias plus, flights of 2-4, diamond formations, etc.  Anyway, the "hot pad departure" (I think also described in detail early in this thread) was the norm at the end of the Det on launching the jets back to Oceana.

The Air Force Langley F-15's would come down with us to Key West (14th and the 27th squadrons) to add more dissimilar to the A-4's as adversaries for the students in VF-101.  They ESPECIALLY loved the "no rules"  flying as they weren't even allowed to come into the break at Langley in a diamond.

After the flare-drop departure (which the Key West "Safety Officer" saw driving in with his car), Key West clamped down... for a while at least  (how was it later, Skogs?).  And, even at places like Miramar, every now and then a di#@head base CO would clamp down and time the breaks with grease pencil marks on his picture window and stopwatch and hammer anyone doing more than 250!?  So, at times, even the Navy bases would get a skipper with a hair up his butt.

At the ship, if a single "relief on-station" CAP the whole ship is waiting for "into the wind"... the lower and faster, at the fantail break, the better -- with no rules (except don't screw it up and not get aboard).  Otherwise, interval rules, etc, with normal recovery full pattern wasn't "John Wayne" (as Skogs describes above).  But, on-station relief was a blast, and they were waiting for only you, with no other interval.  Ship's skippers loved it for tooper moral on the flight deck.  My fastest there was always 540 (external tank speed limit) 'til they raised the limit it to 610 while on cruise off Lebenon relief on station CAP...  for new personal record at the fantail!!    Also, flight deck level, close aboard, supersonic flyby's were always approved (many to be seen on YouTube).

In the end... rules and regulations were "guidlines" only!!!   

F风

Can't believe I'm gonna try this without little airplanes on sticks, or even hands shooting off watches....

1 V 1 maneuvering is all about energy management, and all multi-airplane engagements involve some 1 V 1 maneuvers, even though there are many other jets around.  Remembering that "speed is life," you would like to have an energy advantage over your adversary in most cases.  It gives you maneuvering advantages against the "one" and the ability to react to the "many."  The problem is that higher speed means bigger turn radius.  Add to that the fact that you likely will have "angles off" from the other guy, so maybe you have more degrees to turn than him to get a shot.  Yo-yo maneuvers are a way to manage the situation.

Attacking an adversary who is turning into you, while you have an energy (speed) advantage, means that the time will come when you no longer have the ability to turn quickly enough to stay inside his turn radius.  Rather than overshooting in his plane of turn, or putting out a bunch of drag to slow down, a high yo-yo is in order.  This would be done by rolling out of plane with him, and going to a high nose up attitude to trade your speed advantage for an altitude advantage, thus avoiding or eliminating the overshoot.

Once that is done, you would likely have a speed disadvantage developing, so you would overbank the airplane and pull down and inside his turn to build your speed back up.  That is essentially what a low yo-yo is.

I used to explain it like flying around a bowl.  The adversary is flying in a circle around the bowl, halfway between the rim and the bottom, and you are flying around the bowl, too, but travelling up toward the rim and down toward the bottom as necessary to manage the energy and angles off.

That's all well and good as long as the other guy continues his level, one plane, bogey gathering turn.  The reality is that as soon as you put your nose up for the high yo-yo, you are now out of his plane of turn and so out of phase with him.  This type of situation will often result in some kind of rolling scissors if the other guy wants to get tied up with you.  The other possibility is that he will try to continue to work the out of phase situation until he can bug out without you getting a shot.

The bottom line is that it's a constant chess match, and every move you make, he should counter, and that will determine what your next move will be.  This whole post is a gross simplification of the fight, but hopefully will give you a general answer to your question.

VR Skogs

wangdashuai

写空战艺术的小胡子不是说F-15e的机动性能和14差不大吗，我前两天在bms里飞了一次15e的dogfight，感觉那个悲剧啊，以此类推turkey的机动性我估计也够呛。。。
ps：那个小胡子在谈到防御性bfm时，还说个一个笑话：驾驶turkey时永远不要去奢望做什么防御性bfm

Mutha

wangdashuai 发表于 2011-12-17 20:17
写空战艺术的小胡子不是说F-15e的机动性能和14差不大吗，我前两天在bms里飞了一次15e的dogfight，感觉那个悲 ...

空军那些开着F-22能被F/A-18F搞掉的货……也就剩嘴炮了……

F风

Mutha 发表于 2011-12-17 20:44
空军那些开着F-22能被F/A-18F搞掉的货……也就剩嘴炮了……

别管他们了...........你赶紧把剩下的翻译了吧..........

Mutha

F风 发表于 2011-12-17 20:53
别管他们了...........你赶紧把剩下的翻译了吧..........

你打算把204页全搬过来吗……

wangdashuai

Mutha 发表于 2011-12-17 20:44
空军那些开着F-22能被F/A-18F搞掉的货……也就剩嘴炮了……

我关心的是18的雷达能在什么距离上看见22

F风

Mutha 发表于 2011-12-17 21:00
你打算把204页全搬过来吗……

全搬你翻译不？？？

F风

Mutha 发表于 2011-12-17 21:00
你打算把204页全搬过来吗……

还是把我现在搬的翻译了吧

Mutha

F风 发表于 2011-12-17 21:22
还是把我现在搬的翻译了吧

这堆东西……不给我管吃管喝静下心来干2个月，根本不可能搞完……

wangdashuai

请问你们学校是什么学校？军校？

zy2008

……