一地鹰毛——1977年F-14与F-15的较量

F风

All,

To anyone who dismisses the movie TopGun as theatrics only... I respectfully disagree.  IMHO, this movie, all by itself, displayed to the ignorant civilian audience what "air combat" was truly all about from INSIDE the cockpit.  IOW, it was GREAT in that respect (despite the complications of "getting it onto film" with other unrealistic range shots, etc. etc., and regarding other "unrealistic" parts we as aircrews often make fun of).

What I mean is this.  All other films from John Wayne on to the Air Force film "Iron Eagle" seem to always show a fighter pilot in the midst of multi-plane air combat (!!) simply "looking down at" a radar screen in front of him or then "looking straight ahead" through the front windscreen, with the back of his helmet/head apparently stuck against the headrest, while manipulating flight controls and talking to his wingman casually on the radio.  There was ZERO "intensity" displayed (through the camera) of the incredible, personal, intra-cockpit PHYSICAL gyrations and requirements needed in maneuvering a high performance fighter to successfully "not lose sight" of the bad guy(s) and, thereby, "not lose" the engagement (you never win; the other guy always loses).

The movie TOPGUN did NOT do what previous dogfight films did (thanks to Rat Willard and other Navy "consultants").  They ensured that the audience got a glimpse of the violence of air combat from WITHIN the cockpit... IOW, the movie dramatically displayed Maverick, Goose, Viper, and Jester STRUGGLING and TWISTING in their seats to keep sight of, OR gain sight of, bogeys (REAL world stuff) under horrendous "g" and 6 o'clock visibility limitations under "rock and roll" conditions, with VERY realistic "grunting and groaning" accompaniment... all the while making sure other fighter or wingman or ground collision does not occur!

IMO, the movie was absolutely SPECTACULAR in presenting to the uneducated layman what air combat is really like from WITHIN the cockpit.  IOW, one is NOT calmly sitting there listening to a rock song on tape with Lou Gossich staring straight ahead  while engaging bogies in the "dogfights" of the movie Iron Eagle; as if "radar eyes" were always protecting your 6 o'clock.  IOW, one is STUGGLING and STRAINING -- and grunting and groaning -- to twist COMPLETELY around in your ejection seat, under incredible "g" loads, with a violently shaking jet, to literally look back through your vertical stabilizer(s) in order to keep sight of a tiny bogey which has just zipped by you close aboard at about 1,000 mph closure rate to keep sight of it in order to fight it.  If you lose sight, you will probably lose the fight because the bogey will come around to shoot you.  The movie TOPGUN presented this realistic scenerio EXTREMELY well!!

I completely forgive all of the "Hollywood" unrealistic stuff about "flat spin, heading out to sea" (or, "I'm 100 miles away, I'll be there in 30 seconds" stuff) so that the producers could get an at-sea rescue scene in the film.  But, overall, the film did a GREAT service in showing the ignorant public what it was/is like in twisting and turning one's torso and neck (when your head and helmet now weigh about 140 pounds under 7 "g"s!) in a fighter cockpit while attempting to engage the enemy.  The movie, overall, was WELL done, IMHO!!

Regarding the "pitch rate maneuver" and "he'll fly right by" scene in the movie... Well, usually you don't have that particular option, because by the time a bogey is in your knickers to gun you, one has probably already pissed away most of one's energy (i.e. airspeed).  However, that particular "pitch rate" maneuver is "real", though with the F-14.  It can ONLY occur if you are near the max "g" available airspeed (at around a much higher 325 knots), and you pull the stick back as hard and as fast as you can into your lap (with no fear of "overstress" of the airframe g-wise -- since you are right at or just below the airspeed which could generate more than the 7-g "overstress" condition... i.e. the plane stalls first).  But, the nose WILL pitch about 60 degrees in just a couple of seconds!  In any other defensive maneuver, one is probably already at full afterburner power... especially if rolling out of plane nose high to generate the overshoot.  So, the movie, with Maverick slamming full power first, is quite realistic in that respect.

And, it does NOT matter if you slam the throttles at that instant to full afterburner  or not (which is what I would do just before to have them there at full power at the end of the "pitch pulse"... as it is called, and to avoid an A- compressor stall).  IOW, the "energy" for the "pitch pulse" effect comes from the "airspeed" over the flight controls at the initiation, and NOT the throttle position at initiation (i.e. you are nit-noiding a non-issue with any throttle selection by Maverick in the movie).

But, the "result" in space with the nose is still the same pitch rate filmed in the movie.  Only thing is, the guy trying to shoot you, if not too slow to react, can also counter your pitch maneuver with a high yo-yo to still maintain nose to tail and not overshoot (if done timely and correctly)... but, that stuff with respect to what to do or not is for other discussions.

Point is, as pilot instructors in pilot student back seats on their first hop, we always talked a FAM-1 student pilot (with instructor pilot in back seat first two hops) through that very same pitch rate demo at 325 knots... pretty eye-watering and, more importantly, confidence building for the student pilot.

In short, and IMHO, the movie TopGun gave an ignorant public a VERY realistic perception of the violence and contortions experienced and required by a fighter pilot/RIO WITHIN the cockpit of a modern day fighter during a jet-age dogfight.  GREAT movie in that respect (despite its flaws), IMHO.

(FWIW, many of those TopGun instructors in the movie credits were students of mine while they were going through the F-14 RAGs while I was instructing there... so, I'll take all the credit!!!! )  .

VR,
Magic

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"The Booker T. Washington", mentioned in "Roger Ball" by Duck Auten reference, Monroe "HawK" Smith,,,,, eludes to a time in Yuma AZ NAS when the Aim/Ace guys were getting in shape to face AIM-9L packing F-5's later at Nellis.  Tough screnario, especially against guys like Lew Hoyt(Jumper), Rattler, Heater, Hombre, Wick, Hawk, Cobra etc. (Topgun F-5 drivers). Well, the Turkey crews had a slight advantage for awhile cause the Topgun adversary guys had always thought aft hemosphere heat here to fore. Holygwackaskamoly! now they could shoot  a  A/B bogey in the snot locker from 6-8 miles beak to beak. It took em just a little time to adapt. Hawk visited the Yuma Aim/Ace program early in the program cause the kill ratio was ostentatious!!   How come the F-14's were beatin up the F-5's sooo bad? Their TG pilots would call home plate with a wah wah about getting hammered and Wick would call and tell the Skipper (Cobra Rol.) that 'Hoser'  would not 'knock it off during a guns attack' until his nose was bout in his cockpit. On a couple occasions, D-Hose told Wick (in private)...... when you are getting 'Gunned', calling "knock it off" is not one of your options. Well, D-Hose used to print the cockpit view from F-14 to F-5 from the TACTS/ACMI  playback, FAX it to Wick with a signiture and... "Any Questions"??     It was usually a F-14 HUD view of the F-5 at about 100'-200', piper on the cockpit with the Vc, range, angle off, A/S, Alt.'G', Guns selected/master arm on, hammer down and the pilots names as per A/C!  Usually, D-Hose is not this vicious, however, in this particular case, it was the "only" line of adequate communications.   Well, any way, back to the BTW..... Just spoke with, Hawk, Rattler and Turk.  Seems the Friday afternoon that Hawk flew his TG, T-38  in to MCAS Yuma AZ, 100+ F  in order to find out first hand why the Topgun adversary sticks were gettin their pee pees wracked, there was a fantastic country guitar /harmonica, soft shoe, cow boy boot soles comin off, kid bout 26, standing on stage, in the westerly setting sun in the Yuma O'club playing songs we had never heard and could not ever forget!   One of those gripping moments!   Hawk, during a pause said,,i'll give ya a hunnert bucks for them worn out boots! Then Hawk sez, what is the straight gouge on the ROE over here @ MCAS?    D-Hose... Holygwac..........   what chew mean Hawk?  Well, Cobra, and I keep getting phone calls saying you guys are dangerous, not abiding by the ROE and are using tactics which are not approved by the grand poo bahs of the upper, middle and lower but cracks of NAVAIR???      Hawk! you ain't seen nothin yet! Tomorrow morning on the 0930 4v4 launch, you are going to be the first to witness, our finest and most marvelous kick ass on small blind(no radar) bogeys,, monster mash!!!   The "Booker T. Washington"     STFB!  Hawk... it ain't goin to be pretty!


0944, next morning: 4v4, 35km separation, north to south set up(sun at our medium left and their right). CAVU to the moon, no puffies, con check 33.5k'; neutral set up(niether had GCI). Turkey's base alttitude, 15k', 2 point Tomcats 6 KM ahead of  both shooters split by alt, 20k' and one on the deck @10k'. Both point Tomcats 450kts, TVSU, ID  by 8nm, high low 150 degree slice/level bug/dump fuel..no AB=viz/vapes...until Bug heading established... 'Any'... shot/beep/smoke is a clearance to shoot!  Shooters, Sort, port and stbd, lock, launch Aim-7F's, R- Max and yonother at  R-Op, Switch 9-L /boresight, fish for a tone, shoot remainig two F-5s, idle/high 'g' barrel roll at 4nm/flares/shut em down if need be!... Re-engage the debris with GUNS, 6000 RPM selected!~!!         And That My Man IS; the "Booker T. Washington"!!!      VR   Hoser       Not funny!!! Fact!        Whew! That was a tough recall!

Late entry: The BTW spawned the phrase by Hill Billy,,, "Fox 1 on the Hostile Dot"!!!!       The AIM-7F, as all Sparros, had to have the bogey illuminated until it went terminal. We thought this was a great disadvantage, having to keep the AUG-9 locked on a single bogey during missle time of flight. Until, over a couple Galliano Stingers, Turk and D-Hose figured, why not use this disadvantage to our advantage....... who sez we have to have a VID prior to AIM-7 launch???   Hell, lets shoot a couple at R-Max with 1000+kts of Vc, let those bad boys fly,(checks in the mail) and get a TVID prior to terminal guidance.With the TVSU slaved to the radar anyway, all we had to do was wait and watch count down. If the TV ID shows intruder or friendly, simply go 'lights out' and the 7-Fs'll go stupid. This way, we would never have to get in to 9-L range of the F-5's. Chances are very high that these were 'hostile dots' if they are coming from Indian country. The F-14 TID gave very a accurate count down on missile time of flight. In the real world, this would be a logical option. Well, the AIM/ACE 'referees' raised the BS flag on this GREAT idea and ruled, "positive ID prior to trigger squeeze".         The final test results would have been substantially different if we were allowed to use this tactic.  There would have been much less time in the visual arena and it would not have been nearly as much fun!!!            VR    Hoser  

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Improvisation??? My A--s Murc! D-Hose went to great lengths to make sure "ALL" the information about the  "BTW" was prezactly as it twere!  Ask Turk, Hawk or Hill Billy or Boomer Wilson. From the BTW many variants were spawned!  Holygwackaskamoly!  A, 2v(anything) could sparkle like a diamond in a goat's a--s if the BTW were executed properly. Out of the BTW came the, "Rope-E-Dope", the "Drag", "The Piston", "The Push", "The Spank", and the "Guillotine": Oh yea, almost forgot,,,"The Sphincter", which never really amounted to much but made the Topgun bros quake in their boots each time we mentioned it.

Awsome feats of Fighter Pilot Ingenuity. (To improvise, adapt and over come)     VR   Hoser        PS: Not to worry, (I ain't comin lookin for ya Murc)  However, Hey Joe,  bad mouthing John Wayne.... don't float!!!   

"The Sphincter"?  Thought you'd never ask!  Seems Dave Bjerke came up with the idea ....... What if after a F-14 shot a AIM-7F, the radar lock could be transferred to another in trail, F-14 (AWG-9) if it were locked on the same bogey?   We called Raytheon and Grumman and asked for a audience to dicuss this theory. The 2 guys from Grumman were sharp, well spoken and dressed in nines. The dweeb from Raytheon showed up in a wrinkled sere sucker suit, three different stains on his tie, miss matched cuff links, crooked coke bottle lens glasses, noodle neck and could not have weighed 110lbs soaking wet. We thought, well, this guy looks like hammered gerbil poop but just maybe, he might know his s--t?  We sat down at the long green table with no ashtrays and opened. After we had explained what we wanted, both Grummies exclaimed! What do you want to do that for??  But not the dweeb!  Answer: cain't tell ya cause the answer is going to be way higher than your security clearance.   The dweeb perks up and sez, "with a minor AWG-9 software change and minimal circuit board alteration on the AIM-7F it can be done within 60 days". Turk beat me to it....."we need these temporary modifications, immediately".... D-Hose chimes in, "that means as close to yesterday as possible"!   VX-4 was unique in many ways and one of em, we did not need the approval of any organization (cept COMOPTEVFOR) to paint, modify, temporarily change weapons systems, experiment with tactics, etc. as long as it delt not with,~ safety of flight.    That's why, The Black Phantom, Ferris paint on AIM/ACE F-14s, VTAS, TVSU, blue flight suits, the slatted F-4,(Chicken Licken). What a breath of spring...to not be bogged down by a bureaucratic hodge podge of hap hazard horse s---t!    Those 1966.5 days @ VX-4 were the very best days of any life time!  Right now,,,  I still belive, "Heaven", will suck compared to it!   

In summation, without nibbling at the "classified",,it should be intuitively obvious, from this and by reading the explanation of the BTW, why the  "Leap Frog", AIM-7F tactic would be extremely useful?          (more kills,,,,less risk)          There after, we referred to the "dweeb",  as  Mr. Dr. Dweeb!  ....    Only in VX-4 have I seen  USN Lt. Project Officers wield more clout than the Admirals/06's in the Pentagon. It was like the old E.F. Hutton commercial....i.e. when E.F. Hutton speaks....(silence)... every one listens!!        VR   Hoser

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Hoser's been writing some great stuff about the level of the tactics we had to use against an extremely lethal adversary; a tiny airplane, with a totally effective all aspect missile. When you combine the weapon system with the learning curve of the Red Force pilots over an 18 month period, you can understand that it was getting really tough. The Gomers were reborn every morning, but they got to remember everything that happened before they morted the day before.

Tough gig. If that wasn't bad enough, the JTF Commander started making up new rules about separation and other stuff that reminded of us of the movie "Roller Ball." It was a futuristic, fatal professional sport in which the the league kept changing the rules until the current most valuable player died.

Just before we started the workups, Dirt Pringle stopped me in front of the NKX BOQ to talk. He knew all about AIM/ACE and that I was headed there. He thought it was a bad political move for the Navy and the Tomcat to be involved; and he told me what we were going to learn. He was right, and he probably wasn't the only wiseman to have figured it out. DOD could have saved a lot of money by accepting what he, and others said and started saving up for Agile, TVSU, VTAS and all of the other systems that we now see in our Hornets and the F-35.

Our experience at AIM/ACE bore out their predictions and we documented all of it in our reports. Sadly, the selfish agendas of little men side-tracked the adoption of many of these concepts for more than 30 years. Hey Joe can tell us about his struggle to keep them alive.

In a previous post, I refered to AIM/ACE as a white elephant; but it was only because I was trying to make a point about how much fun we had. I was recalling all of the great times and flying with Hoser, Schu, Hill Billy, Bush, T Sq, Dudley, Phubbs, Ratso, Boomer, Dicky and Falcon; and that, no matter what it cost, it was big fun.

If you ever have a choice between AIM/ACE and a life time E coupon at DisneyLand, pick AIM/ACE. The people who write the checks would have never taken Dirt's word for it.

Turk; Over!

zy2008

小风风，你是在秀你的E文水平么？

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Just spoke with Hill Billy(my RO for AIM/ACE) He sez, we finished AIM/ACE ahead of schedual and were flying adversary flights for the F4E squadron and F-15 squadrons @ Nellis with our Block 90 Turkeys while waiting for next  'orders' !    The flight in question, was authorized by the grand Poo Bahs of the "upper, middle and lower butt cracks of the Air Farce.   The problem arose when D-Hose sent the 16mm gun camera film to his contact at Grumman for processing. (If sent to Air Farce photo lab @ Nellis, it woulda been toast)  Well, the rest is history, Gen. Knight chewing me out and wanting "all" copies of the film, no more fights etc.   However, while Turk was Gunning his Eagle way up there @ 30k'+, D-Hose was trying to get 2 seconds tracking (pipper on) this Eagle driver for the past 76 seconds. That f---ker moved that Eagle with such expertise/magnificence ( just like i've seen Randy Cunningham do)    We,(Hill Billy and I) could not keep the pipper on his a/c until he had to pull up/ be predictable to keep from becomming a lawn dart. And That is when the 8 consecutive frames of gun camera film showed (pipper On)   (sittin right here as we speak)

At the debrief we showed the "BETA" tape which had the audio/ radar/TVSU/ lock on this Eagle. TheTVSU pipper,casually moved from greatest contrast to greatest contrast (his white helmet ,aft to the after burner torch and back)   He thought the TVSU pipper was the gun sight (HUD) Pipper...... HE was Crushed!    He did a hell a fine job of GUNS-D,,, never seen better!   Bout 3 days later, at the Nellis O'Club, D-Hose, got this fine Air Force Fighter Pilot aside and explained that the TVSU pipper was not zee Gun sight pipper and that his Guns-D was the best I had 'Ever' seen.      And that my man is a no s--t!    Hoser

PS: Our battle plan was to split their section and go two 1v1's with no chance for their mutual support!    GOIN for guns,,,, looking up,,, I saw two con trails in close trail,,,,,"Turk,,,Hoser" which one of them cons be you?  Front or Aft?    He sez, "Is there any doubt"?  

Today: Hill Billy asked D-Hose," What 'is' the worst fear, flying fighters"    Answer::::" LOOKING BAD"!!!!   Better to die than "look bad"!        D-Hose...KIN-A!       « Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 10:21:30 PM by Hoser »

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Just got final photos of Rhinolover's re-enactment of Tomcat feasting on Eagle. The detail is unbelievable.... spoiler deflection(ports up bout 4"), Big Boys down, horozontal tails(slight split for roll left), nozzles open(idle), S/B's in and rudders just coming to nuetral(yaw string centered). Yep! the Tomcat had a 'yaw' string.....why?   Ans: Magnus Effect.  Any yaw on A/C while the gun is fireing causes the bullets to act like a golf ball  which has been sliced. The spin causes the ball to have a curved flight path. Same 'O' for any spinning projectile launched into the relative wind. Our bullets spin clockwise: if you notice they are spinning counter clockwise, then...my man, you are in the wrong cockpit....oops! got away from the subject.....I hate when that happens!
Yaw right at release on a counter clockwise bullet causes  high air pressure on the bottom of he bullet and a low pressure on top=so the bullet spirals up and right at a rate depending on how far out of zero yaw you were. The a/c yaw ball on the attitude gyro is not accurate enough to trim or rudder in  zero yaw....A external yaw string for accurate air to air and air to ground was essential.  No yaw string in F-8 Crusaders???   Egh!  On gun hops, it was not unusual to see the F-8 pilot, prior to start sitting on the canopy bow, facing aft, drawing a grease pencil line on the inside of the top of the canopy using the reflection of the verticle stab as a reference. As he closed the canopy, a long string would be clamped in place for external reference on internal grease pencil line on canopy closure, dead center= absolute zero yaw at shoot time(400kts).      Door gunners in helos and WWII bombers had opposite spiral effects from port side to stbd side~~relative wind varying from +20 to 90  degrees.

Got somewhat carried away there, any questions....go for it!  Or back line me..  Vr  D-hose
Yo ! Anyone know what the 'mirage effect' caused by  supersonic projectiles is called? Starts with a 'Sch'.... HaaarrR!   Actually, the spelling escapes me!!  help!  

Late entry! Remembered the term....  "Schlieren Effect".... observed from dead six on a rapid fire machine gun. Of course it can also be observed(once) from 12 O'clock cept you won't remember it!!!    HaaarR!     Bottom line~~ when strafing a ground target, in range, if the mirage effect is obscurring the target, the bullets are going to hit that target. Tracers, one out of six, accomplish the same results.    D-hose

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zy2008 发表于 2011-12-17 17:58
小风风，你是在秀你的E文水平么？

求翻译........

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Quote from: eicjc on January 10, 2011, 05:48:36 PMThought this would be the best thread to ask a question that has been knockin around in my brain for a bit. . . .
And that question is;
I've read before of pilots of -A models flying the engines more than the aircraft during ACM. I'm sure that's a bit of a simplification but obviously the TF-30s required careful management. So was it a case of minimising power changes? I seem to remember that rapid and large throttle movements were prone to cause compressor stalls. (correct me if I'm wrong - please!)
I guess what I'm getting at is what was required to keep the F-14A in the fight during ACM engines-wise?


Jim,

I've always thought too much was made of this (by some).  Here's the short version....The TF-30 was very stable at military power, and very stable at full afterburner.  During the transition between the two, the engine was more prone to compressor stall than it should have been.  In a practical sense, though, since the TF-30 had more limited thrust than was ideal (at least at medium and high altitude), you did virtually all your fighting in full afterburner.  I never had a compressor stall during a fight...not once.  Yes, you do think about throttle movement sometimes, but it's almost second nature.  When you're loaded up (G-wise) you need every pound of thrust, so you're not moving the throttles at all.  I never felt like I was fighting the engine.  Hope this helps.

VR Skogs

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Eicjc,

Skogs hit the nail on the head!  Great post, Skogs!  (My usual "long" version here )...

Yes, compressor stall was really not a "huge" problem or worry 'cuz you wanted to leave it in zone-5 max afterburner in the underpowered F-14A's anyway once turning (and burning!) began.  So, the engines worked as they should, almost always.  Most all compressor stalls in the -A Tomcats were "pilot induced" by moving throttles when one should not, etc.   I do recall 2 compressor stalls of my own, though.

One was in ACM at medium to high altitude at high AOA (=Angle of Attack of the airflow... and, high AOA's with engines not stabilized at MIL or full afterburner power caused compressor stalls).  I was at the "top" of a slow speed rolling scissors at slow speed, high AOA (pulling) condition that was combined with the traditional rolling-while-pulling nose-slicing lift vector control effort... It was the extra boot full of rudder used to roll/slice the lift vector to where I wanted it that was the "too much" culprit at high "yaw AOA" and "pitch AOA" components that I assumed caused the stall (and accompanying "bang, bang" and big time yaw).  Maybe shoulda' went with the PMC instead!!  

For a second, thought that maybe had subconsciously pulled the throttles back at that same point, high AOA (which is done in the A-4 for better pitch rate -- was also flying them at the time).

At the point where the stall BANG happened, I needed to unload anyway for sweetening nose-on posititon, and the "unload" to low AOA (the first procedure for stalled engine anyway),  the engine stall required BOTH throttles to then be pulled back to idle once unloaded... i.e. even idle on good engine to prevent slow airspeed yaw rate build up from asymmetric thrust past 40 deg per second = flat spin possible with zero thrust on stalled engine and max afterburner thrust on the good engine.  In so doing this engine stall procedure for spin prevention yaw rate build up, it was then, as a by-product, easier to point the nose accurately for the shot in not fighting so much asymmetric thrust also.

Stalled engine temp gauge rising, so had to shut the stalled engine down (throttle around to "off"), while bringing the good engine from idle back up into afterburner -- now really accelerating at low AOA to chase down target and to help to get quickly above 300 knots where the "simple" airstart was accomplished (not the "crossbleed" type) on the stalled engine... I think there was an actual switch for that called "airstart" or such (if I recall correctly... been way too long!).

Landed and griped the stall with MX and said I didn't think I'd moved the throttles (but, might have).  In the end, the write-off fix and MX guys told me something wasn't tweaked right -- per JT's "wheel" I suppose.  (I think after my write up attributed to throttle movement, but then stalled again next ACM hop figuring something else not trimmed right).  Which made me feel better, as what I did with stick and rudder that day, I thought,  wasn't much different than all the other days that didn't stall any TF-30's on me.

I also had a compressor stall on the catapult shot one day due to spitting a turbine blade during the stroke down cat 3.  Not the classic engine "stall".  Actually more of an engine "failure" that generated the "stalled" condition.

Funny... SO many flights, but truly remember the fine details of so very few... like these... when stuff   happens... there must be some imprint on the brain process involved... or, good note entries into some mission log like Hoser did!!  Wished I'd have done that!!  (see, did get "Hoser" into this post... as it is his thread!)  

VR Magic
(brevity edits)« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 08:31:49 PM by Magic »

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>>Nice one Magic and thanks for the juicy reply.
I don't remember seeing any figures for yaw rate on the 737 (-200 or -800) for the V1 cut scenario but
I was wondering if the yaw encountered in the Tomcat was considerably more in an engine failure scenario.
Obviously different at much higher speeds but just wondering about the comparison.

Another question now about moving the throttles during the fight, with the GE engines I guess there was
less requirement for afterburner usage given mil was way up on the P&Ws?
Given the 6.5G limit I guess it would be easy to accelerate beyond optimum corner velocity or to over stress
the airframe (if that's possible for an Ironworks product!!  )<<

V1 cut yaw and response varies due to many parameters... thrust, length (moment arm) of fuselage to vertical stab/rudder, rudder size and authority, distance off centerline of the engines, etc etc.  We gave afterburner catupult shots at high gross weight with engine failure on the stroke in the simulators in NATOPS checks and training.  The amount of rudder (a lot) in the F-14 was very similar to the 737 V1 cut at rotation.  Climbout and pitch similar also, although a lighter weight Tomcat would climb faster in burner.

VR Magic

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The counting accelerometers were an A model only system and were later replaced with SDRS, Structural Data Recording Set or System, depending on who you asked. When the SDRS was downloaded it would give you the max G sensed by the system since the prior download and which flight it occurred on. Pretty unpopular with the maintainers because if the SDRS had a problem it sometimes had a tendency to effect the system it was monitoring, IE a shorted wire in the SDRS might throw off a cockpit flight control position indication way out of whack.

The B's and D's were delivered with the FEMS, Fatigue Engine Monitoring System, already installed and it was a really good system. All sorts of flight information and parameters from start up to shut down. Funny thing was in the early B's the storage unit for the data was in a recepticle next to the RIO's left knee and on some ACM or other possible high stress hops the system wouldn't record anything. If I recall correctly, later all the data storage units ended up in the nose wheel well and you needed a tool to get it out.

Strikecat

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First, regarding the F-14 and engine failure controlability, a few were lost early on at slow speed after engine failure.  Simple Vmc problem.  Once it was determined that 14 units angle of attack was the max at slow speed, single engine, all was well.  That became part of the Boldface Procedure for engine failure.

Second, I think I recall from somewhere on this board a post (from Cosmania, maybe) stating that the G limit for the B and D model was higher...7 or 7.5?

VR Skogs

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When I went thru the RAG mid-seventies, the Tomcat was deemed "un-spinnable".  I mean, even in early FAM flights you would try to spin it as part of the syllabus (confidence booster) -- could only develop an accellerating, downhill, high AOA bucking nose down "flying" spiral with all flight controls buried in spin mode.  The jet "wanted" to fly!

A few years later, at high altitude, on a PAX river test hop, they (I think test pilot Don Smith and test RIO Pete Angelina) finally generated a high enough yaw rate (40 deg per second) at thin air high altitude which generated a straight down, "flat spin" mode.  Then, as time went by, engine failures and higher speed accelerated departures started generated that critical yaw rate and we were losing jets to flat spins.  Suddenly, the jet went from un-spinnable to spinnable in a mode deemed "unrecoverable"!  (Even though, once in lower thicker air after crew ejection, all by itself, that jet's nose started breaking more and more nose low until... it stopped spinning and "flew" accelerating straight down into the water!... the PAX river ground camera shows the whole event, with audio... probably on youtube somewhere).

Anyway, once a flat spin was "confirmed," the procedures were RIO... jettison canopy, then RIO... command eject (both pilot and RIO) since the possibility of the pilot being incapacitated were high (6+ lateral g's for pilot and about 4 lateral for the RIO due to distance from center of spin).  All this logic shown via Goose/Maverick in the spin scene from the movie.

Compressor stall means zero thrust.  So, procedures came out that with any compressor stalls during ACM, high AOA maneuvering (especially at high altitude), the first procedure was UNLOAD (I think 5-10 units AOA) to reduce AOA to provide good airflow to engines, and then, once unloaded,  BOTH throttles to idle.  At thin air high altitude, a low risk of compressor stall on the good engine was possible in doing this, but it was determined that both engines stalled (both at near zero thrust with no asymmetry) was better than one engine staying in full afterburner thrust, pushing the nose laterally into the stalled engine and generating a yaw rate of over 40 degrees per second at slow speed -- with not enough rudder authority to counteract it at very low airspeed -- into an unrecoverable flat spin.

If in that rare instance the good engine might also stall in bringing it to idle (rare at low AOA) while performing this procedure, you could always restart an engine, or both, AFTER you were accelerating nose low past 300 knots.  With the first stalled engine shut down, and leaving the former "good" engine "cook" allowed engine powered hydraulics until reaching the 300-310 knots which then allowed "windmilling" of the engine(s) to provide hydraulics to fly the jet as the restart was initiated.  With no motors, the F-14 can't "glide" below 300 knots since the engines don't windmill fast enough to have the engine driven pumps to supply enough hydraulic pressure (and there was no "cable" backups to flight controls... like in the A-4).  No "dead-stick" landings possible.

Even if you were unloaded to weightless and even zero AOA, if you were only 60-100 knots indicated airspeed (say, after your parked nose high tail-slide with that compressor stall), there is simply not enough "wind" flowing over the tail/rudder (even with full rudder opposite the yaw) to stop full afterburner thrust on one engine and zero thrust on the other from generating that critical 40 degrees per second yaw rate (and a flat spin).  It was critical to get rid of the huge asymmetry in thrust quickly with the good (not stalled) engine to idle also -- even with the small risk (with low AOA) of stalling it also at high altitude conditions -- in order to avoid high yaw rates until you accelerated nose down to flying airspeeds where rudder easily counteracts bringing thrust back up on one engine.

Now... that Tomcat flat spin recoverability deal is a whole 'nuther discussion (and, I think, covered on this thread many pages earlier).

F风

Quote from: eicjc on January 13, 2011, 04:26:37 PMQuote from: Hoser on January 13, 2011, 03:37:26 PMHill Billy and D-hose put 12.2 g's on a blk 90 during AIM/ACE  build-ups.  Had it x-rayed and completely checked....engine mounts etc.  No problems cept Hill Billy's sprained neck!

Don't I know it, thanks to Hawk Monroe!

Was there a G monitoring system on the Tomcat or was it an honor system with crews having to report an exceedance?
[/quote]There was a "G" meter in the wheel but it did not register "g" that high! The documented "g" was from the ACMI/TACTS Pod and recorded as range data for the flight.    h         Yo Magic!   great dicussion on Turkey flat spins!   After watching initial wind tunnel spin tests and the Pax River sequence it was intuitively obvious that during the incipient flat spin matching up the thrusties was mandatory and moving the center of lift aft was a REAL good idea.(lawn dart theory)  Of the 4 flat spins d-hose had, a non standard recovery was executed on each prior to reaching yaw rates of 180 degrees per second.  Rolling the slats/m flaps in with thumb wheel and manually sweeping wings aft, simultaneously matching up thrusties and applying opposite rudder in each case caused the nose to drop verticle and rotation ceased within 2 turns. Total rcovery from each was about 6K feet.  D-hose figured this out prior to AIM/ACE, brought these facts up at VX-4..... The smart guys listened up and the Blue Book Fanatics stuck with NATOPS procedures. A very wise fighter pilot, philosopher and sage once said,,, NATOPS is a crutch for the incompetent and should always be superceedded by 'Common Sense"!!!    HaaaarrR!  vr h           (Think the Hoser F-14 spin recovery was covered way back on this thread)    After the GE 110 motors were installed, do not remember any more assymetrical thrust induced flat spins???