一地鹰毛——1977年F-14与F-15的较量

F风

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Re: The "Hoser Chronicles" and Evolution of Air Combat
« Reply #972 on: May 06, 2008, 10:34:01 PM »I spent the last two days gainfully employed reading all 65 pages of this forum and saw a lot of discussion of how Hoser revamped gun training in the RAG.  No doubt, he did.  But here's the rest of the story.

Hoser, in his meek, mild mannered way, roared into VF-101 and basically took over the place.  Guns were his passion and he had the rest of us fired up.  One of the under utilized items in the Tomcat (second only to pilots brains, I believe) was the gun camera.  We never used them.  Until Hoser dug them out of the vaults at Fort Knox (they were so valuable that only there would they be protected!).

Hoser brought in his Tasers and bull whips and proceeded to train us up in gun theory and the pattern.  Gun cameras whirring and M-61s purring (nice, that...).  In those days there was nothing digital about our cameras, so after each hop the film was developed and to the respectful comments of the ready room we would review each pass.  It didn't take long for Hoser to notice that a nano-second at the beginning  of each run was being cut off.  After contacting the finest research universities, it was determined there was a lag as the camera spooled up.  As the cones would get to the low reversal and then start tracking the banner... no film.  Until first detent of the trigger was engaged which started the camera.

Nano seconds are life, so Hoser retired to his desk and schemed of a way to get max film (for max ridicule, I'm sure); and it wasn't long before he had it.  at the low reversal, the cone would squeeze first detent of the trigger and hold that until he was ready to fire at the banner... full trigger squeeze would unleash 50 rounds of Uncle Sam's finest.

I had the honor of flying in that first guns hop using this new technique.  As we instructor RIOs nestled in our seats, dozing lightly (we'd all been there before), Hoser is haranguing the cones about the pattern.  When he gets to the low reversal and directs half-detent to get the nano second back, a small voice in the back of our sleepy minds broke in "DANGER, RIO ROBINSON!"  Murmers build to a dis-organized complaint.  "No Way are we going to go into the pattern with guns selected, master arm on, and half detent... with a bunch of studs!"

Notice I said disorganized complaints.  The RIO union had not organized and when Hoser whipped out the tazers and bull whips we didn't stand a chance.  Off we went to suit up, but not until we the condemned had signed our stereos over to the lucky guys who were flying ADFAS hops that day...or that luckiest of them all, the SDO.  How we envied them.  How they smiled!

We launched.  Uneventful.  We set up and make a few dry runs in the pattern.  Uneventful.  Hoser cleared us in hot (I noticed he didn't fly the tractor that day...)  First cone gets to the low reversal and sprays tracers and bullets all over the sky.  Yikes!  End of hop!

We RTB.  The RIO Union organizes and we kill that risky scheme right then and there.  Hoser came up with a compromise, which our shop bosses signed off on I believe.  We never did get that contract we were looking for, and I don't think we ever understood what the cones were doing at the low reversal after that incident... but no more tracers flew about, so we became our old complacent down-trodden selves...  And Hoser never required instructor RIOs to sit through the whole gun brief again!

This is the one incident where I think Hoser won a battle but lost a war... I think.

I wonder.

But, hey, we're all here posting on this forum so it's all OK!

And it's all true!

bjjt122

Mutha 发表于 2009-11-12 11:35
对头关发是看得比较早的一个故事……
当时我也不信……但是看了他其他故事之后，我相信Hoser干得出来这事 ...

对头就那么点时间就要进入狗斗，哪有空闲去开关发动机呢。我还是同意楼上的看法，应该是把油门放置怠速状态。你想想，在对头时，飞行员要做些什么吧。首先关闭发动机，有多少开关要操作我们就不说了，再一个飞机上有些航电设备是发动机主电源供电的，难道他就不怕一些机载设备停止工作么？关车后，启动发动机是非常复杂的，也许他在对头前会启动APU，启动左右两台发动机需要一定的时间。这段时间又得低头看仪表摸开关启动发动机，又得观察12点的目标。我觉得他不会那么去做。

Mutha

bjjt122 发表于 2011-12-17 12:13
对头就那么点时间就要进入狗斗，哪有空闲去开关发动机呢。我还是同意楼上的看法，应该是把油门放置怠速状 ...

关发动机要很多开关？直接Fuel Cutoff完事儿~

关车后，启动发动机是非常复杂的？还需要启动APU？

我只能说，当你不熟悉飞机系统的时候，你只能执行程序；只有当你理解了飞机系统，你才能设计程序。

F风

Quote from: MURc on January 30, 2009, 04:42:11 AM   I bet the F-15 pilots finally got a rest when the TOM was retired   

I have to admit that I would like to hear "the other side " story of an TOM vs EAGLE engagement but from the F-15 pilot side of view also how they evaluate the Tomcat as an opponent  .

I hope I don't start a FLAME thrower here   no bad attentions only curious  

maybe you guys could invite some former Eagle driver as a guest here..or maybe not , will tell no more , zip

so help me god !




You do know that you will never get an honest answer from the Eagle drivers, don't you?  They hated the Tomcat with a passion because they never did anything operational, while we were in the front lines 24/7.  I remember the belly-aching that went on Air Farce wide when our guys shot down the two fitters.

If you want a "factual" debrief of F-14 vs F-15, ask Hoser to break out his "pipper on the Eagle drivers head" gun camera film.  It's probably already been posted earlier on this page.

My experience vs the Eagle was they had a lot more power than we did, and tended to come in high and attack vertically.  That was early on, as I believe the USAF detuned their motors and they lost a lot of smack.  Of course, as they drove in we launched Phoenix and Sparrows at them, so they were dead meat before the merge.

I also remember from fighting them at Red Flag, they weren't very comfortable at low altitudes.  They seemed a bit unstable and didn't like rooting around with us.  But that could have been the experience level of the aircrews.

I did notice in the Red Flag debriefs that all the eagle guys wore pink scarves and had lace on their flight suits.

  Fox 2

     LTF

F风

bjjt122 发表于 2011-12-17 12:13
对头就那么点时间就要进入狗斗，哪有空闲去开关发动机呢。我还是同意楼上的看法，应该是把油门放置怠速状 ...

大哥，原帖已经给出来了，你自己慢慢翻吧

F风

Mutha 发表于 2011-12-17 12:33
关发动机要很多开关？直接Fuel Cutoff完事儿~

关车后，启动发动机是非常复杂的？还需要启动APU？

hoser根本不管rio死活

F风

Hey Joe
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Re: The "Hoser Chronicles" and Evolution of Air Combat
« Reply #1566 on: February 01, 2009, 12:57:53 AM »Quote from: ltfusn on January 31, 2009, 11:08:25 PMQuote from: MURc on January 30, 2009, 04:42:11 AM   I bet the F-15 pilots finally got a rest when the TOM was retired   

I have to admit that I would like to hear "the other side " story of an TOM vs EAGLE engagement but from the F-15 pilot side of view also how they evaluate the Tomcat as an opponent  .

I hope I don't start a FLAME thrower here   no bad attentions only curious  

maybe you guys could invite some former Eagle driver as a guest here..or maybe not , will tell no more , zip

so help me god !




You do know that you will never get an honest answer from the Eagle drivers, don't you?  They hated the Tomcat with a passion because they never did anything operational, while we were in the front lines 24/7.  I remember the belly-aching that went on Air Farce wide when our guys shot down the two fitters.

If you want a "factual" debrief of F-14 vs F-15, ask Hoser to break out his "pipper on the Eagle drivers head" gun camera film.  It's probably already been posted earlier on this page.

My experience vs the Eagle was they had a lot more power than we did, and tended to come in high and attack vertically.  That was early on, as I believe the USAF detuned their motors and they lost a lot of smack.  Of course, as they drove in we launched Phoenix and Sparrows at them, so they were dead meat before the merge.

I also remember from fighting them at Red Flag, they weren't very comfortable at low altitudes.  They seemed a bit unstable and didn't like rooting around with us.  But that could have been the experience level of the aircrews.

I did notice in the Red Flag debriefs that all the eagle guys wore pink scarves and had lace on their flight suits.

  Fox 2

     LTF


Classic LTF! And so true....

Summer of 1990, VF-32 was serving as Beach Guard at Oceana and funding was tight so no gas to do anything. We had done Fleet Week in New York and Boston in June so those were highpoints and now we were lucky to fly once a week. Then USAF Fighter Weapons School asked if we could come to Nellis and do a 2 week Det as Adversaries for a class of F-15C students if they paid for gas, our own hotel (with casino), rental cars and vans? Does a Bear.....? Even better, we got all our reserve augmentees to come along (they buy a hop worth's of gas every time they flew so they helped defray the cost of coming and going).

When we got there, we were teamed with USAF F-16s out of Luke (their version of an FRS) and told to fly standard Soviet influenced tactics and die like good boys as the vaunted Eagles did their thing. We had GCI control and every day they'd call their shots and kill us all prior to the merge.

Finally, we met with our new friends and decided to get them to the merge and into the phone booth. The first try didn't work as they countered our complex tactic and still engaged us BVR (F-15C did have an outstanding MPRF radar and RHAW gear so it was difficult to do anything without them spotting us).

So we decided to let them have the Syrian Octafloogeron. Our Air Force GCI dude was skeptical that it was kosher, but we had our spy look it up as a bona fide threat tactic. By then we knew what ranges they were calling their Sparrow shots so a "few potatoes" prior that we planned to have airplanes go up, down, sideways, left and right so even if they kept us locked, we'd mess up their targeting contracts and hopefully their section integrity as they tried to decipher what we we up to and deal with threats in many more dimensions than they'd see before. So we planned it out like a Blue Angels airshow so we wouldn't hit each other.

Once we joined with our little brothers we had them tuck up nice and close like Blue Angels in hopes the Eagles would think they hadn't found the division of F-16s. At the appointed time, they detached and then my nugget pilot and I did a split S for the deck. I wanted to get into the rocks and head to an ambush position shielded from surveillance radar and Eagles until their division passed. I heard a few shots called, but no were near as many as before as we hurtled to the deck. We made unscathed and I watched the clock waiting for the moment we figured they would past us and we could start stalking them.

I figured their RHAW would tip them off to our presence so I stayed in pulse search and told my pilot not to sue any auto modes to lock anyone he saw until I said it was OK. My hand also inadvertently hit the IFF switch to off (so easy to do). We were now below the mountain tops and only had to look up for any Eagles, but didn't see any pass. I had moving as far to the side of our area as we could so we'd be hopefully out of their scan from where they initially saw our formation and we also wouldn't have worry about a Western threat quadrant. When I figured they had to be past, I directed the pilot South and started working the elevation wheel on the radar. Almost immediately I had a single bogey at 10K heading Southeast. It could have been one of them or one of us so we went stalk mode.

He was 15 miles away and moving fast. I called for burner and dialed in Nellis in the INS so I'd know how far we had to bingo if gas became an issue. I started giving the pilot bearing, range and altitude calls to get his eyes on the bogey. He wanted me to lock him up, but I firmly said no because at that range he could run or turn into us once he was spiked. I figured he'd run so I told him "You're going to gun this guy and I'm going to get you in the saddle".

We slowly closed on him and saw he was an Eagle flying straight and level without jinking at all. I figured he was already dead or really confident/stupid. When we got well inside Heater range and had a boresight growl, I told him to get ready because as soon as I locked him, he'd break on the spike so he should start rolling left on my call so he'd already be in (anticipated) plane and in the saddle. I also said I would call a Sidewinder shot as I locked him to get that on tape in case our gun camera didn't work. Our prey did exactly as predicted and obligingly broke left in plane giving my nugget pilot an easy gun solution. Ratatat-tat and RTB. Nothing left to chase.

Air Force debriefs are ponderous especially at FWS where they still used old-fashioned chalk boards. The students have to diagram everything that happened and did a great job with those 12 color of dusty chalk...up until then. I figured I had our guy spotted as he was leaning against wall looking a little unhappy and anxious to leave. When the time came to discuss individual engagements, he was suddenly gone. The debriefer said he wasn't a student and had another "commitment". Like LTF says, hard to get them to drop their professed superiorty over all else that flies. Too bad, guess he didn't want a copy of the tape....

F风

Hoser
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Re: The "Hoser Chronicles" and Evolution of Air Combat
« Reply #1571 on: February 01, 2009, 05:24:01 PM »Quote from: JData on January 30, 2009, 06:53:35 PMQuote from: MURc on January 30, 2009, 04:42:11 AM   I bet the F-15 pilots finally got a rest when the TOM was retired   

I have to admit that I would like to hear "the other side " story of an TOM vs EAGLE engagement but from the F-15 pilot side of view also how they evaluate the Tomcat as an opponent  .

I hope I don't start a FLAME thrower here   no bad attentions only curious  

maybe you guys could invite some former Eagle driver as a guest here..or maybe not , will tell no more , zip

so help me god !




If you goto ARC (modeling forum), f-16.net forums, USAF F15/16 pilots talk about the F14 in a 'negative' tone. In fact, one of my pilot sources even ripped the plane pretty good however he was talking about the F14A as he never fought the B or D.  



With equal fighter jocks, the F-16 would gun the brains out of a 'slick' F-14A-, from a head on pass, in 45 seconds....  every time!!!!   The only way to beat a F-16, 1v1, with a A- Turkey was to trick the living s--t out of him!!!   Or blow thru at warp 9 and shoot him in the shot locker with an Aim-7 or all a aspect heater comin back. "ZEE Trick"  only works once and only if the F-16 does not quite recognize relative motion against the dirt or sky.   Turkey against blue sky(no clouds)3000' lateral sep, wings at 68 degrees, glove vanes out, 280 to 300 kts  MAX!  Zone 'SIX' at the lead turn position (~5K'), Wings to 'auto'!! nose, lead pursuit.. VSL high and reef "ON" All the 'G' available!!! 'Air Source, Back ON', "energy for 'position' NOW!~    HaaazzAH!   GUNS!!!!     In a one V one debrief with a 'young' Viper driver after being the recipient of substantial F-14 A- pipper burns just after the merg....asked?? How fast were you going at the merg??   D-Hose, looks port and stbd as if to make sure no one was eaves dropping and said...."the speed of heat". Young Viper asks,"well, just how fast is that?" With the appropriate inhale and loud exhale, D-Hose sez, "That's (Classified), however, I can tell ya,,,,, It Is Really Cookin"!!!       VR  submitted,   Hoser      

PS:    With the Slick F-14 A+ and D, after their initial '9'g' vapor/Viper ball yank, the F-16 made a nice lunch!!!      

F风

Quote from: Skogs on February 02, 2009, 09:29:22 AMWelcome aboard and thanks for the story. How about telling us a little something about yourself.



Well sure!  I already mentioned my time frame for the RAG...'82-'83.  Finished up the FRS in March of '83 and went to VF-14, CVW-8, Indy for two cruises.  Got out after that for an airline career.  One of the things that struck me in my fairly brief career was the aura of the F-8 community.  I met Bug Roach before I even got my wings (as D-Hose would say, that's a whole 'nother story), and when I got to 101, I saw Moon Vance's car parked at the hangar (MG?) with the "Migmaster" bumper sticker.  As previously mentioned, Hoser was holding court every day in the ready room.  When I got to the Tophatters, Rattler was the CO.  "Joe Dog" was the CO at Topgun when I was out there.  Later, when I joined the reserves at Andrews, Bud Flagg was my first CO.  The "F-8 Mafia" was at the height of it's power then!  This thread is an amazing trip down memory lane.

Now a couple of questions for Da Hose:

1.  Is it true that, for a time, the Fumes ejection seat was the captain's chair in your van?

2.  Did you have a dummy AIM-9 mounted on the outside of that van?

3.  Did you really roll a grenade into a BOQ room at Mugu while your roomie was in the throes of passion with a "date?"

The first two have been told for years.  Just heard the last one yesterday.  Cheers, guys.  This thread puts the rest of the web to shame!  VR, Skogs


Holygwakaskamoly!!!    Bud Flagg was my flight chase/instuctor on my FAM-1 in VF-124, Crusaders, in 66. During the brief I requested that since we were going up by Palmdale, I might just give my home town, 'Tujunga', a Hoser's 'back' pass. Lt. Flagg agreed as long as I obeyed 'all' VFR flight rules.   Well, approaching the target, I called Bud and asked if he would like to tail chase me through. Egh! He said he'd stay up here @ 10K' and wait for me to rejoin.  WWll peel off, inverted, idle, line up on Sunland Blvd, south to north, 1500' AGL, stroke burner  the length of the town, pull up to verticle, 5 or 6 rolls till ass end divergence began, level out @ 8k', pick up Bud and barrel roll to join up. Cake!   In the debrief Bud expressed his concern that he would never be promoted if it were to be known that he, was in fact, the flight lead.(zero phone calls)...  He made Admiral....... He and his wife were killed in the 911 plane that the rag head crashed in to the Pentagon.        VR  Submitted,,, Hoser

F风

Hoser
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Re: The "Hoser Chronicles" and Evolution of Air Combat
« Reply #1589 on: February 02, 2009, 06:31:05 PM »Quote from: Skogs on February 02, 2009, 09:29:22 AMWelcome aboard and thanks for the story. How about telling us a little something about yourself.



Well sure!  I already mentioned my time frame for the RAG...'82-'83.  Finished up the FRS in March of '83 and went to VF-14, CVW-8, Indy for two cruises.  Got out after that for an airline career.  One of the things that struck me in my fairly brief career was the aura of the F-8 community.  I met Bug Roach before I even got my wings (as D-Hose would say, that's a whole 'nother story), and when I got to 101, I saw Moon Vance's car parked at the hangar (MG?) with the "Migmaster" bumper sticker.  As previously mentioned, Hoser was holding court every day in the ready room.  When I got to the Tophatters, Rattler was the CO.  "Joe Dog" was the CO at Topgun when I was out there.  Later, when I joined the reserves at Andrews, Bud Flagg was my first CO.  The "F-8 Mafia" was at the height of it's power then!  This thread is an amazing trip down memory lane.

Now a couple of questions for Da Hose:

1.  Is it true that, for a time, the Fumes ejection seat was the captain's chair in your van?

2.  Did you have a dummy AIM-9 mounted on the outside of that van?

3.  Did you really roll a grenade into a BOQ room at Mugu while your roomie was in the throes of passion with a "date?"

The first two have been told for years.  Just heard the last one yesterday.  Cheers, guys.  This thread puts the rest of the web to shame!  VR, Skogs


As for #1... yes for awhile....now it sits just ten feet from where I be sittin, against the bulkhead.    So the ans.   "Ken-A"
As for #2... yes for awhile....At the start of AIM/ACE, the CO of Nellis came to the Turkey trailers, asked for Mr.Hoser and explained.... there are 'NO' specifics in the Nellis AFB regs banning inert ordnance from being displayed on civilian vehicles, however, due to the myriad of phone calls from Las Vegas police and queries from on base personnel, would you 'please'  remove the inert   AIM9-L from the 'port' side of your Harley Davidson van?  "Why sure skipper.. I will comply immediately".    He said, "bye immediately, I hope you mean as close to yesterday as possible"!     HaarrrR!  He was a good guy and used the word PORT instead of "left" when referring to the Winder, purely as a show of respect! As I remember, that word "port" was really difficult for Col. Marvin to spew forth!  That same AIM9-L is sitting vertically in my front yard next to my porch right now, as it should be!
As for #3.... Negative....  Seems D-Hose had to extricate himself of 'ALL' questionable ordnance for the legal separation from 'Dragon Lady' just prior to VX-4 arrival.  The deposition did not sound real good for D-Hose when she said..."Hell, he's even got live hand grenades up in the closet"."Is that correct"?  Retort...out of children's reach of course judge"!!!   No sense of humor that judge.... a real whimp!    It may also be relevant to this particular write....that, it has been said, "the only 1 v 1 that Hoser ever lost was with 'Dragon Lady'! "  Damn, raven haired beauty, 6'1'', Nicole Kidman body, she was so gorgeous..... made one's 'Kneez' weak  on the first tally.    Haazzzah!      D-Hose

F风

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Re: The "Hoser Chronicles" and Evolution of Air Combat
« Reply #1592 on: February 02, 2009, 08:03:49 PM »Air was bled off the engine to supply various A/C functions i.e. air-conditioning, cooling for the AWG-9 and so on. On the TF-30 when this valve was opened it bled off the compressor at the 16th stage or where the air squeezing ends and the bang begins. Well this valve was after the popet valves as described before so if you shut off everything requiring air you increased you combustion to air ratio therefore increasing your core thrust compounded by the venerable Zone 5 you gained just under 19,000 pds of thrust from the 17,000 or so that was normally generated. Sometimes that is all that you needed to get the upper edge on your opponent. The B and Ds never had that problem all electrically controlled. Not hydro mechanical like the 30s.. If anyone has any other motor questions hit me up on the PM.. By the way the dummy AIM-9 on the van is hilarious.  And Hoser, my condolences for your friend.. We paid them back though right after 9/11 and with an all girl crew at that.. Wish they could have broadcasted that on Al (whatever the hell that station is). That would have for sure hurt their morale.. They wasted a whole convoy by bomb and bullet.. Some awesome camera footage at that but that’s another story.  


这就是关环控那段..............

F风

ltfusn
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Re: The "Hoser Chronicles" and Evolution of Air Combat
« Reply #1595 on: February 02, 2009, 11:05:49 PM »While at Oceana in VF-142, we got into a planned fly-off with one of the Langley Eagle squadrons.  They weren't very good in a turning fight, so early on would always shoot us with a radar missile on the run in.  In the debrief, when we would get to the fox-2 their comment was always "well... you were already dead."

After that we would shoot them with the death ray (Phoenix).  Believe it or not, they bought into the propaganda about how all-singing all-dancing it was.  That pretty much shut them up.  We then proceeded to break out the knives like we wanted to do.

The gouge on the Eagle was drag him low.  He gave up a lot of his advantage at low altitude.

another good Eagle fact.  In the early days, they painted all their F-15s "Air Superiority Blue."  Looked strangely baby-bluish.  The Eagle guys weren't too happy to hear us talk about their "cutesy" paint jobs.

But that's what happens when you have a garrison mentality.

F风

Magic
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Re: The "Hoser Chronicles" and Evolution of Air Combat
« Reply #1596 on: February 03, 2009, 12:12:44 AM »I agree with LTF (another "legend" RIO I have had the pleasure to fly with!!).  Also, WELCOM ABOARD SKOGS!!


Quote from: MURc on January 30, 2009, 04:42:11 AM   I bet the F-15 pilots finally got a rest when the TOM was retired   I have to admit that I would like to hear "the other side " story of an TOM vs EAGLE engagement but from the F-15 pilot side of view also how they evaluate the Tomcat as an opponent. I hope I don't start a FLAME thrower here   no bad attentions only curious    Maybe you guys could invite some former Eagle driver as a guest here..or maybe not , will tell no more , zip  so help me god !

Murc,

I'll just say this 'bout that (re: F-15’s -- and Hoser can greatly expound).  I only flew the "A-" model F-14.  I am sure that regarding F-15 Eagles that the "B" and "D" high-thrusties leave little issue or doubt here (having tangled with those new Tomcats after they showed up whilst flying A-4's in the reserves at VFC-12).

As I recall, in the Tomcat "A-", one tried to force an F-15 to come downhill to medium/low altitude (as LTF states) and then into the phone-booth if no high altitude position advantage readily obtained.  I related this to how the A-4 also needed to fight the F-14 (or F-18, or F-15, etc).  As an A-4 driver, one would try (through subterfuge) to make these modern fighters get a bit too slow a wee bit too early (i.e. without enough of an energy and/or big position advantage).  If so, then the lowly, 1950's vintage A-4 could be all over that mistake like a cheap suit and would embarrass those new-age jets; especially with inexperienced pilots who were NOT using "7th floor, please" technique  (i.e. full landing flaps) and/or zone 6.  Also, they were always quite surprised with a "PMC" from the A-4.

I'd say many a cone pilot on their first 1v1 against the A-4 found that out during the syllabus training (if not greatly coached by an experienced instructor RIO).  I've also seen pilots flying the Tomcat "B" or "D" and in thinking one could just bat-turn that new super high-thrust machine with impunity at the pass on a 1v1 to quickly find themselves in the same "black hole" that the "A" model could get into (below 250 knots without a distinct position advantage), and soon finding themselves in big trouble with the fast rolling A-4 in a rolling scissors.  You had to fight a little bit smartly -- and with finesse (but with lots less finesse required in a B/D).

Anyway, if you flew a smart airplane, then the F-14 "A-" (no Phoenix rails or external tanks) could consistently surprise Eagle drivers.  With a good, slow fighting Eagle driver, though, the use of "seventh floor" technique would help a lot in the Tomcat "A" (even without zone 6).  I doubt it was even a contest with the "B" and "D" models, but others who have flown the B/D can expound on that.

There is an old adage in fighter aviation (especially with similarly performing airplanes) that goes something like this... You don't win a dogfight, you lose a dogfight -- and the one who makes the most mistakes loses.  I am now regarded as a genius because I have learned from my mistakes!!

F风

Skogs：Thanks Magic!  As one who flew only the A-, I completely agree with your assessment.  Get the F-15 down in the "teens" or lower, and he's in trouble.  As for the A-4, you're absolutely right.  My very first "fleet" 1 v 1 was against Snort in a Super Fox.  Fortunately, the combination of his rep and good coaching from a senior RO had me fighting the smart fight.  Unfortunately, that was not always the case.     A slick, well flown A-4 was a b**ch for the Turkey unless you managed to stay out of the phone booth.  VR, Skogs

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read from some Tomcat drivers that the Viper was a bit of chore in WVR. As for ITR/STR, for a big plane, the Tomcat (it is bigger than a Eagle), its numbers are very impressive. IF you compare the number under 20K, the kitty gets vicious as you go lower. The viper and the scooter has better transient performance.

I also read that a Scooter driver made some Nellis Eagle Drivers look stupid in the WVR match. He tried telling them what they were doing wrong and the Eagles drivers just blew him off. I believe the name he used on naval aviation newsgroup was Pechs1.