一地鹰毛——1977年F-14与F-15的较量

F风

Great, precise write Magic!  Thanx for giving the definition of "slick" Turkey ....zero rails, drop tanks or TARPS.   The altitude to engage F-15'  was commonly known. We'd like to get em below 18k'.  However, from the F-14A-, 2v2 against Nellis Eagles where the single 16mm gun camera frame is on the pilot's helmet
(back a ways in this thread) that altitude was about 14'k.     What is not covered:  Simultaneously, directly above Hill Billy and I, up in the cons, Turk Pentacost was tightly engaged with the other Eagle. D-Hose asked "Turk, which one of dem cons is out in front"?   Turk responded," is there any doubt"?     He brought back the HUD video proof!   Most of his engagement was above 34K', however, as I remember, Turk, used the 'Big Boys', Zone 6, and went for the juggler as soon as we split their section in to 2, 1v1's.
   Vr    Hoser

F风

Hi Laki,
Nice to meet you. Hoser and I've met some short F-15 drivers. Height didn't seem to make any difference. My Air Force Reserve GIB (yes, I became an Air Force reservist), Joe Hidy, and I, along with our wingy , former Jarhead Ron "The Governor" Reagan, gunned two nattily dressed, visiting F-15 drivers in the Rivers Operating Area back in 1988.

One was about 5'4" and we were flying F-4D's out of Tinker. They entered the merge at 350  KIAS  in a level 1 mile spread. We flew an AIM/ACE spread. (really wide and a big altitude split) with a hook and drag. They would have had to have been much shorter to make that one work. I didn't do it, but to this day Hidy claims that I threatened to kill him if he screwed up the radar sort. He played em like a piano.

The best part of the sortie was when the shortest one (clearly a future USAF Chief of Staff) slapped the side of his jet to get our attention as we schlepped out to our 30 year old Phantom and told us to walk around and take a look at his tail pipes. He went on to explain that it would be the last time we'd see em all day. The debrief was just precious.

Regards,

Turk

F风

Falcon, the Hero of Chretin's routinely carried a riding crop, with a shoe horn on one end and a back scratcher on the other, so Boomer, as OPS/AOIC, was considered by some to be the adult in the group. Intrestingly, the fraudulent Jose Cuervo was an early indication of the real Boomer lurking just below the surface.  His rebellious child again emerged shortly after we started flying actual test sorties. Nellis had an arcane set of course rules which Air Force permanent party considered to be the overarching mission objective. "Don't bust the course rules: anything else is rubbish."

The penultimate rule, was to observe the 350 KIAS speed limit in the break. Parking all of your jet's parts in the same spot was a secondary, final requirement. 500 KIAS seemed like a natural break speed for the Tomcats, which frequently resulted in an angry phone call from Base OPS demanding to speak to our Operations Officer, stat. More than once I heard our yeoperson ask if the caller would prefer to leave a message, or hold while he parked his jet.

Turk
[/quote]

500kts was bout right!   After the Wah Wah bout 500kt breaks,  some of us slowed to 400kts for the break, then tapped Zone Five, 90 degrees into the turn. The Nellis Ops Nimrods asked why the burner in the break??      Answer:   "It's the only way to sustain 7  g's around the corner"!!   Then, the same Nerkin Head asked Turk,,,,, "Ya Butt!    how come you guys use 80 degrees angle of bank in the break"?   Turk fired back in the blink of an eye,,, "cause it takes too much Top Rudder for ninety"!            HaaazzaaH!       VR   D-Hose  

F风

Dag gone it JT... ya just popped yonother one to the surface;;;;  about the mid seventies, when 'Field Day Fellows' had skippers checking at the main gate for ostentatious  Pilots/ROs wearing flight jackets through the gate... O'l Field Day implemented  a plan, to time, track and  make sure 'WE' did not exceed 350kts in the break. He had the the tower controllers put two grease pencil marks on the control tower window and time dem pesky hoooligans to make sure 350kts was not exceeded in the break!   HaaarrrR!   Well, we got the word on that one ten minutes after implementation. So, cake,, 500kts, flight of two, half second interval break just prior to the nums.... did not even venture into the grease pencil trap. Or...instead of being over runway 24 right , move out to the south 800',,,, or, call for a 500' AGL low fuel training break(closer to ground etc.) below the grease pencil marks.... and then tap after burner in the break... Zone 5 in the Turkey, 500' AGL @ NKX....usually got folk's attention!!   Damn!   we sure had fun!!    VR  D-Hose

F风

Re: The "Hoser Chronicles" and Evolution of Air Combat
« Reply #1758 on: February 12, 2009, 10:25:29 PM »


"Iron Works, Baby...!"



Grumman Iron Works is right!  Late in an IO cruise, I was on deck in the alert with Herb "Punk" Wilson.  It was a bogus alert, because we knew for sure we weren't going flying.  The bow was   jammed with airplanes, Cat 4 was down, and on Indy, Cat 3 wasn't water cooled.  To make matters worse, the boat was in a heavy port list.  The final thing to throw into the equation was that the deck was slicker than snot.  Because of a future yard date, Indy did two full sets of workups, and two cruises in 20 months.  As a result, the deck was not redone between cruises.  There was as much metal as worn down non-skid, and it was covered in oil, fuel and cat grease.  About half way through our alert, the call went out over the speaker, "Launch the alert Tomcat."  Huh?  Well, what are we gonna do?  So we start up, and after they break us down, the director brings us over to Cat 3.    They also have to clear off the fantail, because the JBD will be down.  As we try to taxi up the cat track, he's giving me almost constant right turns.  The nose gear is sliding up the track, but the mains won't stay lined up.  I'm looking up the cat track out of the front left quarterpanel!  So, he stops us, assembles the masses, and they push us back for another try.  Same story second try, and they push us back again.  While I'm trying to find a way to get in the slot, Punk is getting a vector just in case we can get airborne.  We're steaming Northeast, and they give us a 140 initial heading.  He asks for an immediate turn off the cat, and it's approved.  Third try taxiing up the cat isn't going any better, and it looks just like the other two tries to me.  I said to Punk over the ICS, "No way this is gonna work!"  All the sudden, the director stops me, gives me a thumbs up, and tells 'em to take tension!  We're about 15 degrees off on our alignment with the track as I ran the power up and cycled the controls, and I was sure they would suspend us.  No way the launch bar and nose gear are designed for this!  The director passes us off to the Cat Officer, and he gives us the burner signal.  I'm thinking, "Holy S**t, they're gonna launch us!"  So I salute, and off we go!  It felt like we were ridin' a 67,000 lb. Slinky.  We swerved back and forth all the way up the track, but the shuttle held the launchbar, and we were airborne before we knew it!  Time for the hot vector, so I made an immediate turn across the bow, left the burners going and steadied up on our initial heading.  Right there in front of us was one of our destroyers, so I figured if I have a license to steal, I might as well use it.  Still in full blower and building speed, we smoked across his fantail.  Should have been a decent show for the blackshoes.  Bottom line, though?  The Turkey, slung back and forth by the launchbar, didn't even bat an eye.....awesome airplane!  VR Skogs

F风

Re: The "Hoser Chronicles" and Evolution of Air Combat
« Reply #1758 on: February 12, 2009, 10:25:29 PM »


"Iron Works, Baby...!"



Grumman Iron Works is right!  Late in an IO cruise, I was on deck in the alert with Herb "Punk" Wilson.  It was a bogus alert, because we knew for sure we weren't going flying.  The bow was   jammed with airplanes, Cat 4 was down, and on Indy, Cat 3 wasn't water cooled.  To make matters worse, the boat was in a heavy port list.  The final thing to throw into the equation was that the deck was slicker than snot.  Because of a future yard date, Indy did two full sets of workups, and two cruises in 20 months.  As a result, the deck was not redone between cruises.  There was as much metal as worn down non-skid, and it was covered in oil, fuel and cat grease.  About half way through our alert, the call went out over the speaker, "Launch the alert Tomcat."  Huh?  Well, what are we gonna do?  So we start up, and after they break us down, the director brings us over to Cat 3.    They also have to clear off the fantail, because the JBD will be down.  As we try to taxi up the cat track, he's giving me almost constant right turns.  The nose gear is sliding up the track, but the mains won't stay lined up.  I'm looking up the cat track out of the front left quarterpanel!  So, he stops us, assembles the masses, and they push us back for another try.  Same story second try, and they push us back again.  While I'm trying to find a way to get in the slot, Punk is getting a vector just in case we can get airborne.  We're steaming Northeast, and they give us a 140 initial heading.  He asks for an immediate turn off the cat, and it's approved.  Third try taxiing up the cat isn't going any better, and it looks just like the other two tries to me.  I said to Punk over the ICS, "No way this is gonna work!"  All the sudden, the director stops me, gives me a thumbs up, and tells 'em to take tension!  We're about 15 degrees off on our alignment with the track as I ran the power up and cycled the controls, and I was sure they would suspend us.  No way the launch bar and nose gear are designed for this!  The director passes us off to the Cat Officer, and he gives us the burner signal.  I'm thinking, "Holy S**t, they're gonna launch us!"  So I salute, and off we go!  It felt like we were ridin' a 67,000 lb. Slinky.  We swerved back and forth all the way up the track, but the shuttle held the launchbar, and we were airborne before we knew it!  Time for the hot vector, so I made an immediate turn across the bow, left the burners going and steadied up on our initial heading.  Right there in front of us was one of our destroyers, so I figured if I have a license to steal, I might as well use it.  Still in full blower and building speed, we smoked across his fantail.  Should have been a decent show for the blackshoes.  Bottom line, though?  The Turkey, slung back and forth by the launchbar, didn't even bat an eye.....awesome airplane!  VR Skogs

F风

"G" stories.... I remember two 8.5g instances of mine which had to be recorded on the MAF's that were on back-to-back sorties in 1976 going thru the RAG at Miramar when, as a cone pilot (flying with instructor RIO Ken Crandall), on my first 1v1 dissimilars vs. the A-4.  Yes, 6.5 was the "official" limit... at least in the A-... simply to make 'em last 50 years instead of only 20 (as Hoser's excellent point earlier was made).

The Tomcat was such a great, comfortable airplane to fly in -- except for the loud ECS when not using zone-6 .  The Martin Baker ejection seat was cushioned (with cold air blow holes in the cushion!)... and, one had LOTS of head, arm, and shoulder room for twisting around in the seat (as one of the accuracies depicted in the movie Topgun).  I've always called the F-14 (like the T-2 trainer) a "Cadillac" regarding cockpit roominess.  That comfort level, IMO, always made one "feel" that one was pulling a "g" or more LESS than one was really pulling -- as opposed to the rock-hard Escapac ejection seat combined with little turning room of, for example,  the A-4.

Anyway, that first day sortie with my instructor Ken on that overstress, I really thought I was in big trouble for pulling the 8.5 g's (Ken lost his vision, but stayed concsious... asking me if I still "had 'em?").  But, instead, Ken gave me a grade of "above average" for "aggressiveness" on the grade sheet form!

'Course, I thought, "what the hell!"... and had no qualms to perform the same 8.5g act the next day's sortie with Ken for "whatever it takes" vs. the A-4... same results for the "aggressiveness" evaluation on my cone grade sheet!!

As an instructor, later on, I observed a general truism... It was much easier to pull back a little on the reigns of a student who was naturally overly-aggressive (as in being so in an un-smart manner which hurt performance).  The overly-aggressive types could be tuned down and throttled back with little difficulty to right where they should be.  It was MUCH more difficult to instill the aggressiveness spirit required of top fighter aircrew to those who did not "naturally" have that inclination.  The aggressive students (and the ones who were good behind the boat... especially at night) were always highly sought after by the fleet squadron CO's while inquiring about those soon-to-be RAG graduates.

F风

Excellent information, Magic!  One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this discussion of G's and G tolerance is what an advantage the driver has over the RO.  As the pilot, you always know ahead of time when the G's are coming, and how much.  With high G, staying ahead of the curve is very important.  A good RO is a master of anticipation, but sometimes they get caught by surprise!   VR Skogs

F风

Skogs,

Yes, and good post, and agree with it all; especially the part about throwing lots of "stabs" into the wind, etc.

The Turkey got roughly 40% of its lift NOT from the wings, but from the big, flat (wing-like) fuselage "tunnel" between the engines!  Still, the AOA and stall principles STILL apply whether you call it a "fuselage" or a "wing"!!  There is really little difference.  When I speak of the "lift" of the "wings" -- that includes that 40% from the fuselage in the "tunnel."  That 40% was the F-15 part!!

This is why, with Phoenix rails/Phoenix attached the F-14 was such a pig in ACM. It destroyed airflow through and over the "tunnel."   It is why we had ACM-type jets configured for Sparrow ONLY in the "tunnel" while the outer-air battle vs. the Soviet cruise missile bombers had part of the squadron fleet configured for that mission with Phoenix and Phoenix rails.  HUGE difference in available maneuvarability from aerodynamics (and NOT just "weight"), as you well know!

I agree... it was a "rough ride," but, the principles are/were still the same... fuselage, wing, or combination of both.  The F-14 had the same slight "rumble" (exactly like the A-4) at about the same AOA where the jet was telling you that it was about to start losing energy (airspeed)..  That "rumble" was the "feel" used in an energy-sustaining turn, be it in the horizontal or more vertical plane.  The "max rate" turn was, indeed, a truly rough ride in the F-14 (as it was in most jets at max AOA... especially at higher speeds).

Many of those jets of our time had the same "signals" telling you "something."  The F-14 was really not that much different, despite 40% of the lift being from the fuselage/tunnel.  You could fly the A-4 on the "edge" with the smoother feel/rumble as the slats attempt to "fall" out at that 12 unit AOA... or, get them FULLY extended NOW for max lift/turn in the "NOT so smooth" violence well ABOVE 12 units AOA.  It is technique and experience determining when to use what!  Same with the F-14... there were times for "slight rumble" and then times for VIOLENCE at much higher AOA!!

Still, "stall AOA" stuff applies!    At the ultra-slow air speeds in, say, a rolling scissors, and using max AOA in the A-4 at the top (non-PMC!!) made for a fairly "smooth" ride in its plus g "pirouette" at the top, despite the very high AOA generated.  Of course, we trimmed way past 0-4 on the stab, which the Training Command disallowed for stall/spin entry/recovery considerations with students.  Those higher trim "rules" of the training command (I was there too at VT-22) would make for a higher speed fights, and more "bronco" type rides at higher AOA.  But, much higher trimming for slower air speeds (tighter scissors) made for a very "smooth" high AOA maneuvering possible in A-4 adversary squadrons that did not have those Training Command "trim rules".

An A-4 that had slats which symmetrically extended would usually be a very smooth ride -- even at high AOA.  The F-14 was ALWAYS a rough ride at high AOA because of the turbulent airflow off the engine intakes (the "fuselage part" of the lift) hitting the twin tails at high AOA.  If you turned around and looked at the tails at those high AOA conditions, the tails were bouncing left/right about a foot or more from that turbulent air hitting them!!  LTF can confirm that!!  

VR  Magic

F风

Magic,

Man, nice expanations!  I hope there's no homework!   One of the things that has not been specifically addressed is that the Turkey was a fairly complicated airplane, aerodynamically.  There were two main reasons.  First, LOTS of big moving parts.  Second, the large flat body of the airplane was another airfoil, and it had different characteristics than the wings.

As for big moving parts, the wings, flaps, slats and spoilers all came into play, but once you heaved a stabilator out into the relative wind, things really started happening.  And each of the big parts had an effect in more than one axis.  The F-14 wasn't called the Turkey for nothing!

The "body airfoil" explains why the airplane didn't have a classic "stall."  Most "normal" airplanes, you can maintain one G, just keep slowing down, and eventually you'll hit that complete loss of lift, pitching down stall.  As mentioned above, the F-14 didn't do that.  As you approached the stall angle of attack, you began to lose some lift, but not all at once, because the wings and the body didn't stall at the same AOA.  The result wasn't pretty, but you were still flying.  It was a very rough ride, with the airplane bucking around, but completely controllable.  Turkey guys stop noticing that rough ride...you just get used to it.  My first exposure to this bumpy ride was actually in an A-4 when I was instructing in Kingsville.  I went up in "Bones" Patteson's back seat on an ACM flight.  He had just gotten to K-ville from Miramar, and was anxious to wring out the A-4.  As any TA-4 guy can tell you, the max SUSTAINED turn rate in a Scooter has a very specific feel....a low grade rumble that you get right at 12 units AOA.  Also, in a scissors, the airplane was smooth and solid.  But not this flight.  "Bones" flew like he was still flying a Turkey....I felt like I was in a rodeo!

Anyway, the complexities of the F-14 made for a pretty steep learning curve.  But at least in the A-, we didn't have to worry about adjusting the thrust, since we had the Ronco engines ("Set it and forget it!").  So it was full blower until the "knock it off."  VR Skogs

F风

Magic,

Man, nice expanations!  I hope there's no homework!   One of the things that has not been specifically addressed is that the Turkey was a fairly complicated airplane, aerodynamically.  There were two main reasons.  First, LOTS of big moving parts.  Second, the large flat body of the airplane was another airfoil, and it had different characteristics than the wings.

As for big moving parts, the wings, flaps, slats and spoilers all came into play, but once you heaved a stabilator out into the relative wind, things really started happening.  And each of the big parts had an effect in more than one axis.  The F-14 wasn't called the Turkey for nothing!

The "body airfoil" explains why the airplane didn't have a classic "stall."  Most "normal" airplanes, you can maintain one G, just keep slowing down, and eventually you'll hit that complete loss of lift, pitching down stall.  As mentioned above, the F-14 didn't do that.  As you approached the stall angle of attack, you began to lose some lift, but not all at once, because the wings and the body didn't stall at the same AOA.  The result wasn't pretty, but you were still flying.  It was a very rough ride, with the airplane bucking around, but completely controllable.  Turkey guys stop noticing that rough ride...you just get used to it.  My first exposure to this bumpy ride was actually in an A-4 when I was instructing in Kingsville.  I went up in "Bones" Patteson's back seat on an ACM flight.  He had just gotten to K-ville from Miramar, and was anxious to wring out the A-4.  As any TA-4 guy can tell you, the max SUSTAINED turn rate in a Scooter has a very specific feel....a low grade rumble that you get right at 12 units AOA.  Also, in a scissors, the airplane was smooth and solid.  But not this flight.  "Bones" flew like he was still flying a Turkey....I felt like I was in a rodeo!

Anyway, the complexities of the F-14 made for a pretty steep learning curve.  But at least in the A-, we didn't have to worry about adjusting the thrust, since we had the Ronco engines ("Set it and forget it!").  So it was full blower until the "knock it off."  VR Skogs

F风

JData,

Far too many variables to give a good answer to this one, but at least I can give you some of the considerations.  First of all, I was flying the A-, so you had to plan to be in full afterburner the entire fight.  First of all, you needed the power, but also the TF-30 had well documented stability issues.  It did great at full military power, and great as well in full burner, but transitioning between the two at high angle of attack was a recipe for getting gunned while you try to get your motors to quit stalling.  So engaged time was limited greatly by fuel.  Then you have to ask, "What are the weapons assumptions?"  Head on?  Aft of wing line?  Head on for one and aft of wing line for the other?  Next question is what is the setup.  Neutral abeam was most common for 1 v 1, and that both makes it "fair" and increases the time to achieve a shot.  As a rule, similar (F-14 vs. F-14) took the longest, all other things being equal.  That's because neither party has a performance advantage anywhere in the flight envelope, so it was much more difficult to gain the angles to get a shot.  The result there, if you happen to get two top notch drivers, can be a long, drawn out stalemate.  See above for discussion of maneuvers to finish that.  For dissimilar, it depends greatly on what kind of airplane the other guy is in.  Against most airplanes of that era, a properly flown F-14 would gain an advantage.  That being said, blundering into the other airplane's strength could have disastrous results if flown by a capable driver.  This discussion could easily extend many pages, and still not cover it all, but the short answer is that a 2-3 minute fight, while not unusual, would be considered somewhat on the long side, particularly real world.  VR Skogs

F风

GREAT post, Turk... Exactomundo!

GREAT posts, Skogs!!  Excellent presentations in about 20% of the verbiage it takes me!!

JData... what Skogs said.  An interesting thing, also, to ponder.  High/medium altitudes, least amount of gas used per minute loiter/holding type power settings used about 2200 lbs per hour per engine (say around 4400 lbs per hour total) depending on drag configurations.  So, once on a "loiter" type holding station saving gas in the F-14, and if refueled to near full internal (16,000 lbs), you could fly in a holding loiter over 3 hours on just that internal fuel.  At low altitude near sea level, in full afterburner, those two engines are gobbling fuel at 2000 lbs per MINUTE, so that same 16000 lbs will go away in only 8 minutes...    (Not quite that bad at med to high altitude... but, still, talking minutes to run out of fuel... not hours).

Point is, there is a HUGE range in fuel rate burn that had to be closely watched... and, to reserve enough to escape and get back ship if needed.  As Skogs said, in the A-, you needed that thrust in full afterburner most all the time in a typical 1v1 dogfight... doesn't take long for, say, 12,000 lbs to be gone!!

F风

Ya Butt!   How many 'on the edge guys' have you known who actually dumped fuel prior to a known 1v1 similar,,, just to get that minuscule thrust/ weight advantage???   D-Hose has 'seen' five!!!  May have been more, however, did not see em do it but could tell by their initial turn they had a short bag full.   HaaarR!     VR  D-Hose       BACK OFF Laki!!! (You be tryin to stir the pot again)     No, I ain't giving out their names or even what type aircraft was involved.          Bye the Bye,,, where the hell is Laki??? Ain't heard diddle from him in bout seven days???     


Turk and D-Hose just had a 22 minute exchange on the blower about the difference between, 'controlled departures' and "Pitch Moment Coupling".  The Forum explanations are very good however, it is difficult to demonstrate these maneuvers without using aircraft models or our hands.  Which spawns 'the'...  Question of the day? in using our hands to demonstrate dog fight maneuvers... how come the left hand always kicks the s--t out of the right hand???     HaaaaRR!  

F风

Negs on the Turkey tumble. The nose high, 28+ unit AOA cross control, was a well known  F-14 necessity in order to make it snap in the opposite direction of full aft 'lateral stick'. At high AOA, trying to coax it in the desired direction with normal aft and lateral stick/rudder, was a time consuming, fight losing experience. The snap departure evolved?   D-Hose had nothing to do with it's inception but  you could tell the Turkey drivers that did 'Not' use it.... they were the ones with permanent 'pipper burns' on the back of their necks!

OK,    Laki ,,,I know what chor thinking.. 'Most' Turkey drivers knew of the above maneuver. So it was not a secret. It was uncomfortable for some and inviting a compressor stall on one of them TF-30's'.   If ya be successful in love and combat,,,"All  Is Fair"!  In the Aerial Combat Arena, the 'masters' of 'Five Dimentional Relativity' are few! (very few)  The very best Turkey Guru's that I have seen(up close and personal) are Turk and Bushwhacker...in that order. Now Smash would probably be in there cept he and D-hose never had the pleasure of going beak to beak, 1v1, Turkeys cause, on a mutual personal understanding, we agreed that to win a 1v1, one of us would have to slack off slightly in order not to, 'simultaneously', share the same time and space. (going prezactly for the same 5 dimensional reference point) This was intuitively obvious from our previous(3) 1v1, F-4 battles at VX-4.

On the first 1v1 in the Turkey against Turk, we both saw the same ominous outcome...so we avoided locking horns shortly there after.      Turk can expound/pontificate on that!  Turk...you awake??                 VR   D-Hose